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Abigail Williams > Becoming > Reviews
Abigail Williams - Becoming

"Becoming" radiates atmospheric beauty - 94%

BlackMetal213, July 17th, 2015

It seems like there are a lot of bands out there that receive unneeded negative and biased hatred based on past releases. Abigail Williams is one of these bands. Originally beginning as a band that mixed metalcore with symphonic black metal on their debut EP "Legend", a lot of people either can't look past a few breakdowns and dismiss this band as another generic metalcore band, or they don't even listen to the music at all and choose to never look back. While "Legend" may be a fairly average EP, the band truly began their transformation on their debut full-length "In the Shadow of a Thousand Suns" when they moved completely away from their -core sound and replaced it with a pure symphonic black metal one. However, even after this, they continued their evolution with the purely black metal "In the Absence of Light". This is a band that just seemed to keep evolving and on "Becoming", they’ve reached their creative peak, in my opinion. This is an amazing atmospheric black metal album with a lot going for it and while it may not be completely original, it certainly is gorgeous.

It seems that these guys really were going for a "true black metal" sound in regards to the production. This is easily and instantly noticeable upon first listen. It's not extremely low-fi but when considering the past releases from Abigail Williams, it's fairly raw. It has a nice dirty layer of distortion that works extremely well for the atmosphere this band was obviously trying to create. In terms of atmosphere, this really isn't something we haven't heard before from bands such as Deafheaven and Wolves in the Throne Room. The atmosphere practically screams "natural beauty" and has been a common sound within the more modern "post-black metal" bands that have been popping up every so often. This seems to be something that a lot of black metal fans have grown an extreme disliking for. Regarding to this style of music as "hipster black metal", a lot of people are not willing to accept this "genre" of music as black metal. However, there are a lot of people that fully embrace and welcome this very beautiful and I guess you could say "transcendental" sound. Either way, Abigail Williams has found the perfect atmosphere for this style of music.

The guitars are not at all muddy and drowned in the mix. They are indeed harsh and buzzing but are mixed in quite well with the other instruments. The guitar work on this album is notably less chaotic and complex than on previous albums, but for the sound these guys were aiming for, this is a factor that works just fine and helps to achieve the musical goal. Much like a majority of other atmospheric black metal albums, the guitars here work more as a wall of sound than a technical riff fest. Most of the riffing ranges from melodic tremolo picking to droning, beautiful atmospheric passages. There are also moments of clean guitar which add to the more peaceful sounding sections. "Ascension Sickness" is particularly beautiful with its soaring melodic guitar riffs, almost Japanese sounding melody in its intro, and the ambient break after the chaos subsides. This album works a duality effect between harshness and peacefulness, and it does so extremely well.

It seems like Abigail Williams has continually evolved over their career. This is their most recent album, released more than three years ago in 2012. I remember around summer of that year, they claimed to be disbanding. However, they have since stated they would be returning to the studio for another album. I hope this is the case, as I really want to see what they can come up with next. They are heading down a path of brilliance and while they may have a shaky reputation, this truly is a wonderful album.

Insultingly Presumptuous, as Thrice Before... - 30%

doomknocker, November 27th, 2014
Written based on this version: 2012, CD, Candlelight Records USA

You know, looking back, I wonder if there was ever a time when Abigail Williams was anything of a genuine act. Their ability to shrug off previous musical notions and styles album-by-album doesn't exactly come off as a band trying to reinvent itself so much as a band that shoots for one particular style, not succeed at making it work and trying something else entirely. The symphonic deathcore thing didn't pan out, the first legit attempt at real black metal was decent at best yet didn't ultimately satisfy, and the foray into a more grimy old school black metal variety was more cloying than anything else up to that point. It really feels like they just couldn't do anything justice, which lead to seriously frustrating listens in light of the constant hope from others out there that they'll truly release something special. Well, like the three works before, it didn't happen, and we instead are treated to their most vapid collection of songs to date...

Now to be fair, "Becoming" is at best competently performed, with no major highs or lows to really nitpick or speak of in that regard. The instrumentation and level of playing is adequate, being able to bypass the iffy production scheme and at least come off as a tight unit, with the guitar and drum work being some of the most well put-together of anything Abigail has done so far with nary a sense of overtly technical post-production noodling "Shadow of a Thousand Suns" suffered from, and the vocal parts seem to fit the general flow and scheme of things without being too much of a distraction. It's clear that this was done by a group with a clear vision of what they want(ed) to accomplish this time around, yet in spite of all that, if taken on a musical level it's really just "there", not speaking loud enough to be heard amidst the brighter voices from better, similar acts out there, to which I wonder how something so ultimately lame duck ever saw the light of day. It really does feel that, despite it not coming off as simply thrown together, there just isn't any heart or soul behind the music, and that really works against them. Black metal, for the most part, has been one of the most moving of all the sub-genres, engaging the listener(s) into a multitude of nihilistic or emotional expositional bouts, and when you take away all of that in favor of faux-aristocratic condescension you can't hope to have that same level of appreciation when the resulting album doesn't move the listener. Or entertain them, for that matter, for you can only handle so much ennui before casting this aside in favor of something that matters a hell of a lot more for you. But again, I could just be being unfair...

However, as they once again cast off stylistic skin, this version of Abigail Williams takes more than a few cues of the recent rash of "hipster black metal" groups that have come at us in the past several years thanks to the likes of Agalloch and Wolves in the Throne Room. Gone are the black-as-pitch movement schemes, the dark atmospheres and the raging tempos, all of which are replaced with a blurry production, wayward arrangements and an aura of pithy self-importance. Much like the two groups previously mentioned, one just can't get behind an album that takes itself far more seriously and righteously than the music would ever allow no matter how well it's written, performed or otherwise. But then again, that's always been the biggest problem with A.W.; allowing such an unfortunate thought and belief process to take higher precedent than the actual material, thereby rendering the finished product second-rate, if even making it that far. It may sound like I'm being very unfair on this album and the band, but the thing is I'm a far bigger fan of music that pulls me in versus keeping me at arm's length the entire duration. Almost like I'm not allowed to join in on their forest-trekking festivities, and as such I can't say I felt all that compelled to go back once the record came to its end. If I wasn't welcome at first glance, I doubt I'd be the second go around...

At the end of the day this is, without a doubt, the worst album Abigail Williams have put out and proving that theirs is a path leading to devolution as opposed to proper musical growth, as well as one of the most lacking black metal albums I've ever heard. This has since left me cold to the band as a whole, and anything else they'll do from here on out I do not wish to be a part of. You had your chance, and you blew it no less than two or three times. C'est la vie...

Beautiful.. but not the Abgail I fell in love with - 85%

Hideous_Spawn13, July 20th, 2014

I first heard Abigail Williams on XM Radio with the song "Watchtower” from their EP Legend. I liked it enough to give the band a try, and I’ve bought every album since. Their progression from metalcore with black metal influences to pure unadulterated black metal has been an interesting one. The metalcore aspects of the band never bothered me, but it was in In the Shadow of a Thousand Suns that I felt they found their niche in the black/core sub-subgenre. Now, with Becoming, they’ve siphoned out all elements of core to leave us with the fully blackened version of Abigail Williams. This introduces an entirely different band than it was two albums ago. I would be ok with this if In the Shadow of a Thousand Suns wasn't so goddamn good. It was unique, intense, beautiful and powerful. Then, In the Absence of Light was a try at true black metal, and now we see its fulfillment in Becoming.

First off, Abigail Williams receives my congratulations for achieving the art of black metal. It works this time, whereas I felt it only worked a portion of the time in the last album. Ken Sorceron has a voice that could rock Damien right to sleep in his horned crib. It was made for black metal. You feel the pain and raw emotion with every scream, complemented by the dark and drawn out chords of tremolo picking guitars. What else can be said about the guitar work here? Well, they serve the purpose of providing melody, with absolutely nothing showy or technically brilliant. I enjoyed the guitar solos and varied riffs of the band's past, but we've already acknowledged this isn't the Abigail I fell in love with. The drumming by new member Zach Gibson is also more functional than flashy. His blast beats are solid, which is essential ever since the band's new genre commitment. Also, there are some high points of crazy fast fills crashing into driving choruses, such as in Radiance. The drums and guitars in this album fall delightfully under the radar. They excel without any glitter or glam, achieving the true ambiance of black metal.

The most notable distinction of Becoming would have to be all of its "non-metal" passages. Breaking from the blasts and slowing things down is nothing new in the realm of black metal, so it works pretty seamlessly. But I can't help but feel there could be less of it. I might be exaggerating when I say it's about 50/50 metal to ambient synths and cellos, but it seems close. Don't get me wrong, these mellower parts are enjoyable, but then I think back to the intensity of In the Shadow of a Thousand Suns and my ear-pussies dry up a little. Orchestral passages were used to perfection in that album by opening it and ending it, with only one short track of melodic synthesizer work. Abigail was so hot back then, but I digress. I really do find myself liking this album more with each listen, which is an improvement over In the Absence of Light. It opens well, holds interest throughout, and closes on a high point. I find the most joy in Becoming by pretending I discovered a great new black metal band. It's not my old Abigail Williams, but they're still making music that I love, and I have a renewed hope for their future songwriting endeavors.

Nice turn - 85%

calderabanuet, August 2nd, 2013

I’ve got to be honest: I’ve been thinking of this review the whole damn week. I mean I know everybody has a life and stuff to do, as a matter of fact that’s the reason why I must wake ‘ntil Sat night to start writing. And no, I won’t even try to sell the cheap lie of me planning my writing for days, still it’s true I had tried to mentally highlight the points I wanted to get across. And everything was clearly and neatly ready for being started, except I ran into last Abigail William’s effort.

I truly felt like reviewing this one before anyone here, for my previous plans had already fallen apart when listening to it. And there are strong reasons for that to have happened, I can tell you that.

Now, after the HUGE disappointment that “In The Absence Of Light” was, my expectations were low, really low. And before that? Well, you got a couple core releases I couldn’t have cared for any less, and a symphonic black metal album that managed to catch the attention of many. Include me there. Yes, “In the Shadow of a Thousand Suns” was a fine album. Believe me. Also notice I said fine and nothing else. Indeed, it was the little hope and curiosity for finding any remains of those technical guitar riffs, killer drumming and real symphonic not-only-simple-keyboard-chords-held-up-to-eternity accompaniment that brought me to listen to “Becoming”. I found nothing of’em.

So, what on earth is there to be found here? A couple reviewers have even dared to label it as atmospheric or ambient black metal. Labels and classifications are often misleading; I know, but in this case, those two are quite illustrative. It’s official: Abigail Williams have again veered on their path; at least musically.

The album opens with “Ascension Sickness” and no, is not one of those ball-kicking riffs that’ll make you go wild and head bang since the very beggining; au contraire, it’s calm dark guitar notes that brake the silence. Some wind in the background announces something is awakening and the rest of the instruments join almost delicately, if you like. Then it hits you; next thing you know you’re squared in the eye of a storm, defenseless. It’s epic tremolo riffs that surround you and won’t let you go for a couple minutes. Right after your are to admit they got you with your pants off, and also you started to arrogantly believe you had learnt everything that there is to in this first track, calm comes back and strings make their appearance. Yes, I’m talking’bout cellos and shit; and they rock. Shut up. The song takes its leave leaving behind a trail of folk guitar arpeggios. Hell, this jewel takes little more than eleven minutes out of your miserable existence, and every single second is worth it.

What about the vocals, uh? As they occur in “Radiance”, Ken Sorceron’s singing is the same during all the record: raw, dark and quite little. I really enjoy when instrumentalists who make throat work for their super badass bands (notice the italics, please) are able to keep their mouths shut and focus on the music. There are also several moments when speaking female voices step up to accompany the most minimalistic spots, but as you can imagine, they ain’t meant to outstand in any way.

Let me state plainly: absolutely NOTHING in this work is meant to take a leading role, but to be merely another element in the complex construction of the whole. There, dear readers, is where the greatness of “Becoming” lies; it’s a solid set of elements wisely brought together. Needless to say this shit is hopefully becoming one of many highlights to come this year. Haters, fans and others come and contemplate contemporary forms of disturbing music!

Originally written for www.globaldomination.com

Abigail Williams – Becoming (2012) - 80%

Asag_Asakku, May 31st, 2012

Salem; a small town in New England in the early seventeenth century. A child develops a strange behaviour. She shouts, screams insanities, climbs the wall, breaks objects. Panicked, her parents call a doctor, who detects a diabolical possession. The girl accuses of witchcraft citizens of the city, gives names and lurid details about black masses and other satanic rituals. In this environment stifled by faith, the judicial machine grows mad. Pyres are lit, women are sacrificed for having allegedly addicted to black magic. Then the young accuser mysteriously disappears without a trace or return. Her name? Abigail Williams.

This is also the name of an American black metal band led from the beginning by singer and guitarist Ken Sorceron. Its musical evolution is atypical. First, strongly tinged with core, Abigail Williams adopts amore melodic black sound over the releases, but win no more than limited success. I myself did not like In the Absence of Light (2010), finding it uninspired and monotonous. Now based in Los Angeles, the quintet is launching a third full length called Becoming (2012), taking at the same time an unexpected artistic shift.

Indeed, throughout the listening of this album, I wondered if it was really the group that I thought I knew. The change of style is amazing. This time, Abigail Williams takes the path of ambient/pagan black metal, in the vein of Wolves in the Throne Room or Falls of Rauros. The songs are long, strong and richly constructed with several changes of pace that break any linearity. From the opening track, Ascension Sickness, we perceive the difference: slow crescendo of sounds associated with a harp, followed by a few blasts and a voice shouted out beautifully. While Radiance is shorter and based on a desperate mood, Elestial surprises with its enthusiasm and its complex construction. However, the masterpiece of the album is without a doubt Beyond the Veil, which concludes the ceremony. More than seventeen minutes of beautiful music, steeped in classical instruments and a great atmosphere, interspersed with passages that magnify it. A pure delight.

My astonishment was immense when I first listened this album, produced by a group I do not expect much and whose reputation is fragile. Their merit is all the greater. The American black metal scene made surprising progress in recent years, thanks to groups that know how to innovate and renew the genre. I sincerely hope that this momentum continues. 8/10

Originally written for metalobscur.com

Oh my god this is bad... - 20%

GTog, May 11th, 2012

If you're a fan of Abigail Williams, turn away now and don't look back.

Or rather, look back. Look back at their entire discography up to this point. Hey even better, listen to it. Any randomly chosen track off any previous Abigail Williams album is superior to Becoming in its entirety.

It opens with the overly long and overly indulgent Ascension Sickness, which is repetitive, derivative black-ish metal. Clocking in at over 11 minutes, it is simply 6 minutes or so of song padded with black metal wankery. Sound of blowing wind, suspended tuneless guitar notes, all the little tricks to try to create a creepy atmosphere. The rest of the album doesn't get any better, so I suppose it at least performs the job of an opening track by setting up what's to come.

Take the third track, Elestial. (Skip #2, it's just boring.) Elestial is musically identical to the opening track. It's like they didn't even try to write a different song. It forgoes the whooshing wind noise, which is why it's shorter, but aside from that it's the same song. Is it supposed to be a thematic bridge of some sort? Don't you need a theme before you do that? Elestial then fades out reeeaaallly slowly, pointlessly padding the song length.

The fourth track, Infinite Fields of Mind, is again the same song. No atmospheric intro this time, but don't worry, some meandering guitar bit eats up the entire first two minutes of this alleged 10 minute track.

Three Days of Darkness is where Ken & Co. seem to have decided that since the song filler is working so well, why not try some album filler? The track is just whooshing sounds effects for 2 1/2 minutes. Inexcusable from any band.

In case you're wondering if the iTunes exclusive track Akasha can redeem this mess in any way, forget it. I don't know how to describe Akasha, but if you listen to the other six tracks you'll know that it fits right in.

Ken Sorceron took over the production duties himself on this one, and if you ask me, really made a hash of it. It's deliberately lo-fi, deliberately atonal, and deliberately trying to sound natural. I'm reasonably sure that "deliberately natural" is an oxymoron. This is not my taste in black metal, this is tr00 kvlt kiddie stuff without the eyeliner.

Ascends Above Their Early Work - 90%

IndividualThought, March 3rd, 2012

Abigail Williams, a band that confuses me to this day. They started as a metalcore-ish tinged symphonic black metal band, then went to worship Emperor with their "In the Absence of Light" album. Now, they play what can only be described as atmospheric black metal with a lot of post-rock and ambient influences, and heavy metal passages. In short, this is an awesome amalgamation. This mixture creates an awesome atmosphere throughout the entire album. In fact, "Becoming" may be their strongest, best effort yet, I am indeed in love with this album because it almost brings me back to the early days of Agalloch. This album does indeed lack in one vital point (that is why it did not receive a perfect hundred) is because it lacks originality, and it's a bit loose, meaning that some of the passages in the tracks seem as if they don't belong, like that strange growl at about 8-9 minutes into "Ascension Sickness," I think I may have giggled. But everything else is indeed a masterpiece of USBM. It may not spark a "new wave of American black metal" but this record may solidify Abigail Williams and their importance in American black metal.

My favorite tracks on this record are "Beyond the Veil" and "Infinite Fields of Mind." I like "Beyond the Veil" mainly because of it's awesome length (epic standard), classical influences, and amazing instrumentation. This is the track where the post-rock/ambient influences shine. Epic may be overused, but I will use it here, this track is EPIC. I also think "Infinite Fields of Mind" is a highlight, because this is the track where the black metal shines through the bleak, darkened atmosphere of this album and pierces through your speakers. Blast beats and tremolo picking, the usual black metal elements just glisten here.

Pick this album up as soon as you can, it is a must for atmospheric black metal fans. That's how I got here, I heard about these guys a lot but never really enjoyed their stuff until now. At this rate, these guys will be some of the best black-metallers on the Western hemisphere, but let's not bite our tongues, they might have just got lucky.

No Bullshit-- This Is Excellent - 94%

cweed, February 20th, 2012

I don't know what the deal is with me wanting to defend shit that no one likes. I already white-knighted Liturgy in an earlier post on here, and I'm not ashamed to admit that I really like Celtic Frost's notoriously shitty "Cold Lake" ("Seduce Me Tonight" fucking rules) and brain-dead guttural slam (Cephalotripsy, Devourment, Cemetery Rapist)- shit that makes internet metal nerds freak the fuck out. Maybe I feel bad for the artists for some reason? I don't know. Obviously there's shit that's terrible that I'll 100% agree is lousy (such as the latest Morbid Angel album, Cryptopsy's "The Unspoken King", "St. Anger", etc.), but I feel like there are times when you can tell an artist or band is super into their shit and really, REALLY want people to like it. This kind of desperation is a turn-off for most people, but at the end of the day for me it has the opposite effect. I guess I'm one of those "it's not THAT bad" kind of people, but whatever.

My point is that Abigail Williams is one of those artists that I feel gets a lot of hate for superficial reasons. I should probably preface this argument by saying that I haven't really done my homework on this, I haven't read too many interviews with these guys and don't know too much about them, so this might just be a stupid argument to make. Anyway, here's what I know about them:
1. They started out as a shitty blackened deathcore or whatever group (I haven't listened to their early shit, so I'm going off of metal-archives).
2. They tried to establish themselves as more legit by putting out "In the Shadow of a Thousand Suns", a more "symphonic black metal" effort which featured Trym drumming on some tracks.
3. Still not being taken very seriously and compared to Cradle of Filth and Dimmu Borgir, they decided to strip down their sound with a less-overblown, more "evil" atmosphere with their second album, "In the Absence of the Light". Still received mediocre reviews. At this point they've already gone through a shitload of lineup changes as well, and have been getting booed at live shows.
4. Recently put out "Becoming", which is one of the best albums that I've heard so far this year.

Wait, what?!

Seriously! I don't know if these guys started doing heavy-duty hallucinogens and/or just started listening to a lot of Wolves in the Throne Room or Altar of Plagues, but something's up. Whether or not these guys are totally ripping off this whole "post-black metal" trend or not is besides the point-- "Becoming" is an excellent album, and even though they've clearly jumped on a bandwagon, it's original enough to appreciate in its own way.

While there's plenty of "atmospheric" touches to Abigail Williams' new sound, conspicuously absent are the band's old trademarks of symphonic flourishes and polished production. Instead, while there are still plenty of gorgeous melodies and beautiful string arrangements, the album has a gritty production quality to it that goes perfectly with its "dark" BM riffs and ominous ambient moments (listen to the beginning of "Beyond the Veil"!) and well-placed psychedelic moments.

I seriously would have never guessed this is Abigail Williams. I've listened to their two previous albums, and wasn't very impressed. I've read reviews of their live shows, and the general consensus I came across was that they were boring. My buddy told me that at the show he was at they got heckled by the audience. After putting out this album, I can't imagine these guys still sucking live since it's obvious that "Becoming" has the two essential ingredients for greatness the band has been lacking this entire time-- passion and inspiration. By listening to everything from Ken Sorceron's howling screams and growls (someone else mentioned Xasthur or Leviathan, I can see that) to the energy pulsing from the drums, it's obvious that these guys were FEELING this album. I have no idea what the lyrics are about on this album (I've noticed there's a significant lack of contemporary interviews), but clearly they're not phoning this shit in.

The musicians' performances are also all top-notch, and while nothing specifically stands out as amazing, it works to the music's advantage by maintaining the listener's focus on the music as a whole. I mentioned Altar of Plagues before, but that's who comes to mind most when describing Abigail William's musicianship. Personally, I didn't find "Mammal" to be a work of musical virtuosos, but they obviously don't suck either (the same could be said for Wolves in the Throne Room too). Saying they "get the job done" implies that they're kind of shitty at what they do, but that's not what I mean. When listening to "Becoming", you're not distracted by any musician in particular, just the "vibe" of the song. Eh, you know what I mean.

While I can see a lot of metal fans putting these guys down and not giving this album a chance (understandable, to a certain extent,) I'd say that by writing these guys off you're missing out. Obviously, I was blown away by "Becoming", and I hope by checking this album out you'll be as pleasantly surprised as I am. I can't believe I'm praising this album as much as I am, but as much shit as these guys have been through by internet metal nerds like myself, they definitely deserve it.

RIYL: Nachtmystium's newer stuff, Wolves in the Throne Room, Altar of Plagues, Deafheaven, Agalloch

Not entirely Unbecoming - 68%

Wilytank, February 19th, 2012

(Originally posted by me to the Metal Music Archives: http://www.metalmusicarchives.com/)

Hmmm... Metalcore? Melodic black metal? Symphonic black metal? What flavor will Abigail Williams scoop out for this year's ice cream cone, Becoming? Well, looks like they settled for post black metal, and to be honest, it's quite bitter. It sounds like Wolves in the Throne Room, so I SHOULD like it, but really it might be that very fact that I do not to a full extent. After all, a bar of solid gold and a bar of iron spray painted with gold paint may look similar, but one holds actual value and the other is a cheap imitation even if said imitation does look illustrious.

Quick note: never in this review or any other of mine am I going to use the term "hipster black metal". I've seen other people use it for bands like WITTR, but I do not like using it because 1) It's cliched; and 2) It makes the critic look like they can't come up with any good reason to criticize the album and simply settle with a derogatory, faux genre label.

Wolves in the Throne Room may be the dominant influence on this album as their type of transcendental atmosphere is obviously present, but they're not the only influence. Ken Sorceron's vocals frequently remind me of Malefic from Xasthur mixed with either of the vocal roles from the dudes from Summoning. In "Infinite Fields of Mind", there's wailing tremolo guitar starting at 7:05 that I'm sure I've heard in more than one Nightbringer song. After that section is over in the same song, we've got some Primordial sounding triplet riffing. I guess a good thing to point out is that at least Abigail Williams is for the most part keeping the tempo mostly on the down low so as to avoid looking like they're deliberately ripping on other bands, especially WITTR with their almost constant blast beating; the two exceptions of this being the first half of "Ascension Sickness" and the ending of "Radiance".

That said, there's still some creativity found in Becoming. Mind you, most of it is found in the album's closer "Beyond the Veil". This song, in contrast with the rest of this otherwise average album, is probably one of Abigail William's best. The utilization of the classical strings is excellent, and goes really well if Abigail Williams were trying to really go for the "transcendental" vibe that bands try to go for with this type of black metal. If they made a black metal album with more of this type of soothing string work, it would probably be some sort of spectacle.

As it stands though, Becoming is still rather lackluster when lined up with other black metal albums I've listened to. "Beyond the Veil" and other creative parts save the album from falling below the level of mediocrity, but it's still definitely not an album I'd buy. I am kind of worried for Abigail Williams though if they decide to jump on another bandwagon. Their metalcore days made them unpopular enough already, and there definitely will be people out there calling them bandwagon hipsters for their current transcendental style. For their sake, I hope they don't make a leap that will dig a deeper hole for them like turning into a dubstep band or something. With luck, they'll just go with the aforementioned calm classical instrument infused post black metal and make "Beyond the Veil II" or something.